Ed Brill, commenting on Darren Duke's blog:
To comment on the support point specifically, in the next few weeks we will announce formally that support for 9.0.x will be extended to 2021. It doesn't depend on a version update. And as you note, things originally expected in 9.0.2 are going to come in what are currently called fixpacks. I haven't decided what to call the update with Verse on Premises yet.
Reading between the lines:
- Domino 9.0.2 does not happen.
- Domino 9.0.1 is not going away for five years.
- "Verse on Premises" is the thing being worked on.
Now my interpretation: As I said after Lotusphere 2016, there is no plan for Notes. The plan for Domino is Verse on Premises. It was promised for end of 2015 by the old management team (Schick et al), but never worked on. Now it is being worked on and will ship somewhere in December, even if that month may have 90 days.
Am I clear enough? Not? Let me spell it out for you. No. More. Notes.
According to me, version naming is not that important as long as we get features and support
If IBM wants to switch from 2 year release mode to more agile / cloudy release frequency then fin
The real questions are : are we in maintenance mode for Notes Client ? (I think yes), Domino as mail (I think no ==> Verse + on prem), Domino as App Dev platform (Xpages) : I don't know...and would love an answer.
App Dev has always been tied to the Notes client (Designer). That whole framework and Java is lagging so far behind, that I find it way too expensive to carry the app dev story forward. And one must have had its hand deep in the sand to not see this developing.
Does anybody want to do another fat Notes rollout? I doubt it.
What IBM would like to keep is maintenance revenue. Hence messaging, Verse, Outlook support, mobile, etc. But app dev, especially NEW apps? Puleeze.
We could have a designer only client ...or an xpages only designer, that would remove a LOT of Eclispe version constraints. IBM also prototyped a web IDE...So I would not be as affirmative as you are ...but I'm affraid you may be ;-)
If the world was static I would agree with your optimistic view. But the iceberg seems to be shrinking rapidly. So there is a rush to the boats.
We'll have to wait that Q4 "App Modernization" story then ;-p
No more Notes. Fine. But Verse? Please...
9.0.2 vs 9.0.1 FP7, I don't care...as long as it has fixes.
I'd be fine with another fat rollout. It's somewhat trivial with SmartUpgrade, but I'd need to see the release notes to see if our users would even benefit from it. Speed and a better thought out NFL implementation are my requests, but I don't have much faith I'd see significant changes in either.
From the Domino side, I'll take whatever a new version is offering. That's a no-brainer if we will see some security/bug fix items.
Not interested in Verse on-prem any more than I was in Connections on-prem. If customers aren't using Verse, it's not because it's in the cloud. If IBM believes that, they're delusional.
I think this means that Notes shops now basically have 5 years to abandon ship (or shop). For some this will be generous, for others maybe not. In any case, anyone who hasn't already, will now have to start thinking about the future of their Notes applications and data.
As opposed to web apps, the classic Notes applications are tightly coupled with Notes forms, so you will need your Notes client in 10+ years - if your data retention period is 10+ years and if you save your NSF.
Well, if your data retention is 10 years, I would hope you made plans earlier.
I think it's unfair to describe Darren's blog as a rant, especially given that Ed's response (basically) confirms everything he wrote.
Of course, we all know Darren is passionate about what he does (that's why I and so many others have enjoyed his presentations at Connect and other UGs over the years). There's a fine line between rant and passion here in terms of semantics, but I believe that Darren is on the right side of the line here.
Please attribute this as me not being a native speaker. Tell me a better word and I will replace it.
I'm good with "rant".....but thanks for the backup Stephen ;)
For us as a customer it is pretty clear. In the case when IBM will kill our huge investment in the Notes client i am sure we will not pay IBM to get Verse on Premise. The reason to use Notes were never the e-mail capabilities, but the endless possibilties to combine a mail client with an app dev platform. In our environment the notes client is a CTI client to our PBX. A CRM system and a GUI for our ERP System. And other great apps with moden UI. I do not think that Verse with or without connections can provide similiar possibilities. Maybe i was to stupid to see the signs, that IBM will really kill the Notes client. But i have always trusted in the promises we got from several persons inside IBM.
"If customers aren't using Verse, it's not because it's in the cloud. If IBM believes that, they're delusional."
No, actually well-informed. We have a long queue of clients who are explicitly asking for and waiting for Verse on-premises. I've asked at every user group and event I've attended since I returned to the brand, very positive engagement. And the beta, with external client participation, is going well. Our target for shipping is not December 32, but it is Q4 2016.
I am commenting here and on Darren's blog and others today to try to convey that I'm listening. And I would like to be able to say more about what my roadmap bullet about app modernization means, but it is something we are still working on a few different paths, and it is not going fast enough and I want to do more before we talk about it... I recognize that the silence is leaving people to their own interpretation and as a result I will likely miss the expectations. That's not what I am shooting for of course but I want to acknowledge the tone and frustration I hear.
Ralf, IBM never "kills" products. There are so many other options.
Ed, thanks for the clarification.
WIth all the respect in the world for Ed and also the IBM engineers (John Pag especially), I have to ask a question.
Why are people still getting annoyed about this? How is this even still a thing? We were all screaming and howling from about 7 years ago (some even earlier). The writing has been well and truly on the wall for years.
Notes and Domino are gone. It's a damn shame. But nobody outside corporate IBM can fix this. So nobody is going to fix it. Move on. I did. It hurt and I miss it, but IBM don't owe me a living.
The single underlying factor of the yellowverse, as said by everyone, was the community. Well, they are people. They are friends. If you lose the community, that's on you. Not IBM
Yes Mr. Brill We are one of this customer who has asked for a on premise Verse version since IBM verse was introduced. But there are two important points for us. First the installation and administration of verse on premise should be as simple as to install adn administrate a domino infrastructure. And the second point is that Verse on premise does not need a whole server farm to run. In the moment we have aprox. 200 Application and Mail Users on our Domino server which is Hyper-V virtual machine with 4 Cores. Will Verse on premise run on the same box with 200 active users? I doubt it, when i look back what Hardware ressources were needed when we tried to setup a Sametime/Websphere demo environment in the past.
So yes maybe Verse on premise can be a viable solution for the mail Part of Notes/Domino, if IBM is able to provide a simple to install and use solution for the SMB market and it will not need very big irons to run.
P.S. But this will be only a solution for mail. Then we still need a solution for the apps and the integration with the new mail solution.
Thank you Ed for your answer.
IBM is changing direction.He stopped listening to its partners....and only listen to its shareholders. Unfortunately, this way of doing business will bring heavy losses, many customers will leave, many partners will desert you. Who will follow IBM in its mission?
Ralf and Paul, this is not the place to have a conversation with IBM.
And Ralf, yes, Verse on Premises will be simple, as far as I know. And it's just a Domino server, so it will continue to run your apps.
But, puleeeze, start getting the message and re-architect your precious desktop. IBM is not afraid of losing your 200 users.
Maybe Domino 9.0.2 will be called [new product name] 1.0 instead. That is why 9.0.1 will be the last "Domino" release?
In some aspects it would be logical, but then the only thing that I am sure about Domino now is that it is not sure. Well for another 5 years but not longer.
what IBM is doing is losing pieces of his puzzle. Very sad and stupid.
IBM should do an event dedicate to business partners and customers, listening them for draw the good roadmap.
From what I've read different newspapers, I realized that IBM will push the cloud in every solutions. All products on-premise will be deleted and moved into the cloud in the next two years. Today is Domino, tomorrow for Connestions, for Sametime, for WebSphere (yes websphere also in the plan) and so on.... They are convinced that all developers will go Bluemix (as microsoft think that all will go on Azure). Unfortunately it does not happen, all the universe not understood that companies do not want to lose control and security of their data. Good luck IBM, you really need - If I look at the actions IBM of the past five years I see that growth is 0. Look at other companies (Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft) and you will see that all of them have grown - shareholders should reflect on this and why this happens
@volker: IBM is not afraid of losing the 200-user customers? Then it will lose a slice of 80% of the world market. Really a smart move :-)
Jilos, I know. I used to get SMB briefings from IBM every three years. A strapping young manager would give the the spiel about how SMB is so important to IBM. Then I never heard again about it, until three years later a new hopeful manager would start all over. One of those carousels in life.
I also learned one day, that this 3000 ppl engineering firm was considered SMB by IBM.
IBM vs Google and Microsoft stock
I know there is alot going on here, but I use Google mail for Business and Microsoft Azure for a small SMB company. What these companies are doing now are so far away from what IBM are managing. Easy to sign up, excellent value for money, "never" fails, high quality all over. Amazing how a large company like IBM did not manage to take care of the large customer base they had. At one point they must have has approx. 40- 50% av the worlds corporate email users?
In 5 years I bet its close to 4-5%, maybe lower?
If you're still on Domino, it's about the apps, not the mail. Azure and Gmail are what IBM is striving to be, but they've lost the ability to leverage their core strength that set them apart from commodity mail.
If you gave any of these folks the choice of modern dev vs Verse, I'm pretty sure I know which would win that choice. It's too late now, but...
SMB is the backbone of the economy. If IBM want to serve only large business I find that a fairly perilous strategy. Many people enter large business from small business and take with them values which made them successful there, also from the collaborative area.
I heard many times in the collaborative space 'good is good enough'. I guess SMB mentality has find it's way up in large business but perhaps IBM is not realizing it.
IBM wants SMB badly. They just never succeed.
I've loved Notes for decades, long before there was a "Domino." But I've been wondering for a long time when it's going to end. Looks like I don't have too much more time to wonder. Just time to figure out what I'm going to do with my clients' applications.
As far as IBM and small business goes, they've never even acknowledged us. I was at a briefing at at Lotus in the early 2000's when they mentioned something about small biz - you know, 10,000 users and below. At that point I really understood that REAL small business is completely invisible to them.
Bill - I was at a meeting where they spoke about SMB. That was under 5000 employees. I live in Ireland. At the time ,there was ONE private (well, semi state that was Telecom Eireann) that was not SMB.
But, they know what they are doing. THey simply see SMB as too much work for too little money.
Maybe they will do the same as Microsoft did with Windows 10. I mean the idea behind that isn´t that bad ...
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