Lotus has great news for you

by Volker Weber

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No, not that huge IBM customer Daimler, maker of Mercedes, Smart, Maybach, Freightliner, Fuso, Western Star and Detroit Diesel cars and trucks, is moving 180,000 seats to Microsoft's cloud offerings. That is insignificant.

The good news is that Finnish company Atria, already a Notes customer, is consolidating their multiple mail system across geographies to the IBM product.

Comments

vowe: I admit, the manner in which you weaved the two "announcements" together is humorous. Nice work. However, I have to ask: What would cause you to think that Ed (or anyone at IBM, for that matter) would create a post about Daimler?

Gregg Eldred, 2010-10-06

You mean, what is the difference between PR and PR? ;-)

Volker Weber, 2010-10-06

How can they afford to do anything ?

Daimler average salaries

Sean Cull, 2010-10-06

Its amazing to think that I have more hits on Mr Brills' site than one of Lotus Germany's most important customers.

Its funny reading through some of the old ones..

---* Bill

Bill Buchan, 2010-10-06

@vowe - I think you always say "There will be no press release." This is another example. :-)

Gregg Eldred, 2010-10-06

Bloggers are not bound to press releases, believe it or not. They can put things in perspective. Stuff that is not going to stay a secret forever. Especially if your competition is going to tell the world, in each and every competitive situation.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-06

Losing 180,000 Notes seats really hurts. In my opinion it's a big mistake, but I'm a bit biased since we're developing Notes based software :-).
Daimler is still on Notes/Domino R7, a version that came out in 2005, five years ago. It's a pity that the end users had to use that old version for so long. Compared to R7, a new Outlook client really might look like a smart piece of software ;-).

Karsten Lehmann, 2010-10-06

Petze.
Aber einen Versuch hat es ja gegeben (den ich jetzt nicht so gelungen fand).
Solange von der IBM nur Durchhalteparolen und Jubelarien kommen darf man wohl nicht auf Besserung hoffen. Irgendwie schade.

Henning Heinz, 2010-10-06

Henning, welchen Versuch?

Karsten, ist ja nicht so, als habe IBM nicht darum gekämpft. Daimler wird sich Notes 8 schon mal ordentlich angeguckt haben.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-06

Dass ist nicht sehr gut

Phil Warner, 2010-10-06

"Private" Stellungnahme von Stefan Pfeiffer, Marketing Manager ECM & Lotus bei der IBM auf der Connections Webseite des European Lotus User Club. Ist damals auch als Nachtrag auf die Heise Meldung erschienen.
Im Kontext der verlorenen Accounts von Bayer und Daimler und einer seltsamen Pressemitteilung über Singapore Airlines über stimmige Visionen zu sprechen war eine Steilvorlage für Bernd Vellguth. Leiter Notes Competence Center Microsoft Deutschland GmbH. Der hat sich dann mal so richtig ausgetobt und einige Aussagen "zurechtgerückt".

Henning Heinz, 2010-10-06

Bernd Vellguth ist ja ein ex-Lotus-Partner. Dem macht man so schnell nichts vor. Wo hat der sich "ausgetobt"? Bei Euluc ist da nichts zu finden.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-06

In den Kommentaren war ein Link auf dieses Interview mit dem Daimler-CIO über die Migration. Er erklärt es vor allem mit dem Effizienzgewinn von ein paar Minuten pro Mitarbeiter. Notes-Anwendungen werden parallel noch "sechs bis sieben Jahre" weiterlaufen.

Oliver Regelmann, 2010-10-06

Unten aus den DISQUS Beiträgen
"Zu der Referenz mit Singpore Airlines: Singapore Airlines hatte bis vor kurzem 22.000 User. Die Singapore Air Terminal Services – SATS – die Flugharen Handling/Engineering-Gesellschaft wurde kürzlich privatisiert und abgespalten. Daraufhin sind die 9.000 Benutzer der SATS auf die Microsoft Cloud Services (BPOS) migriert. Die Migration wurde vor 2 Wochen abgeschlossen. Die Domino-Applikationen der SATS werden von Sigapore Airlines vorerst weiterbetrieben. Allerdings führt die SATS inzwischen auch SharePoint parallel dazu ein. Lediglich die 13000 Nutzer der verbliebenen heutigen Singapore Airlines nutzen weiter Notes, wie schon lange zuvor. IBM hat also einen Kunden zu 59% behalten und zu 41% verloren. Das ist inzwischen der IBM eine Pressemitteilung wert! Gratuliere!"
Die IBM spielt meiner Meinung nach mit Ihren verbogenen Aussagen der Konkurrenz direkt den Ball zu. Vielleicht hat die IBM nichts vorzuweisen, dann wären wir wieder bei der Frage, ob die Visionen der IBM denn stimmen.

Henning Heinz, 2010-10-06

Ui. Das ist ein interessanter Thread. Ich habe da viel zu früh abgebrochen. Euluc ist ja eher IBM-freundlich, aber die Bemerkungen dort decken sich mit dem, was ich auch höre. Was für IBM wirklich alarmierend sein sollte, ist die Tatsache, dass Unternehmen sich Notes 8 in Ruhe anschauen, und dann abziehen.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-07

@Karsten: My company just today moved the last few mobile users off R5 onto Notes 7...
It was just a little over a year ago we started to move all users over. The reason for the slow move was that we did that at teh same time as they were moved to a Citrix environment.
The desktops are not powerful enough to run Notes 8.x (just 2x256MB memory, and no more expansion room), but with Citrix the limitations go away. So we hope to get on Notes 8.5.2 early next year.
So there can be many reasons to stay on an old version.

Karl-Henry Martinsson, 2010-10-07

Das ist ein interessanter Thread, indeed. Especially the "perspective" of which you speak, vowe.

Gregg Eldred, 2010-10-07

Gregg, I was referring to this lengthy thread. It starts with a rant by the German marketing lead and fans out into a lively debate which includes MSFT employee Bernd Vellguth, a former Lotus Business Partner, who is very instrumental to the Sharepoint success in Germany.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-07

Somewhat embarrassed that I missed that link in Henning's post. Thanks for pointing that out (off to read it now). Although, this is a good thread, too. :-)

Gregg Eldred, 2010-10-07

@Karl-Henry: "but with Citrix the limitations go away" - especially bigger companies with existing Citrix farms slow down their adoption of Notes 8.x Standard, because they are afraid of moving their farms to 64 bit, which is an unavoidable step, too. Some have to stay at 32 bit because of other legacy software. Still using Notes 8.x Basic with Citrix 32 bit may not convince the CEO, that Notes is still up to date especially in comparision to newer Outlook versions. The psychological strain of companies like Daimler must be really big, if they decide to run two heavy weights like Domino and Exchange side by side.

Peter Meuser, 2010-10-07

@Peter: This is - unfortunately - exactly the situation we have: we have 10,000 users which originally we had planned to migrate from 7.0.1 Base to 8.5 Standard on Citrix XenApp 5. Due to legacy software (not Notes related) we are currently not able to also migrate the farms to 64 bit yet. We tried - together with the help from IBM - to design a concept to strip down the Standard client in a way that we could still run it on a 32 bit Citrix but we had to give up: after 15 concurrent Lotus standard sessions the server starts to freeze. So we now must roll out the Base client which is very disappointing for us, but we cannot double our Citrix server capacity (currently 300 servers) just to run the Standard client. In my point of view it was a huge mistake from IBM to forget all performance considerations especially under Citrix when they launched Notes 8.

Gaby Spaszewski, 2010-10-07

@Oliver "Interview mit dem Daimler-CIO" - wenn man sich die nicht wirklich überzeugenden Argumente für einen solch großen Schritt so anschaut, scheint gerade der letztlich entscheidene Punkt unter den Mantel des Schweigens zu fallen: "Zu den Kosten können wir uns leider nicht äußern." Bringt Microsoft gleich noch Geld mit?

Peter Meuser, 2010-10-07

@Gaby,

first of all the Notes 8.x and 8.5.x Basic client should not use more resources than previous clients and before installing an old client version I would have installed the latest available version in Basic mode at least.

We are working with many customers in the Citrix area and there are official IBM papers how to optimize. See this link -> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/lotus/documentation/d-ls-notes851xenapp/

You should be able to get at least the double number of users to a 32bit machine if the client is properly deployed.

There are very interesting changes in Notes 8.5.1 and above to allow to use multi-user installations which allows you to keep the NTFs in a central location on the Citrix server (shared data directory) and also allows you multi-lingual installations (if needed).

You can still install the standard client and just use it for some of the users (by changing the published application link or via notes.ini setting UseBasicNotes=1).

So in 90% of our projects we are installing the standard client (even if we need to stick with 32bit OS) and use the standard client at least for some of the users.

It is true that the standard client is using more resources but you can get it working with more users also with 32bit.

Daniel Nashed, 2010-10-07

@Daniel: The question is not to get Notes run in Citrix environments in "some" way. The question is: How do I offer a contemporary user experience to the whole enterprise? Moving from Notes 6.5/7 to Notes 8.x Basic in the mass and offering some small user groups the Standard client is not a really convincing design. What is the prospect today for offering all users the same experience? Do they have to wait until "Vulcan" materialize? Are they willing to wait another bunch of years after being behind the rest of the world since years?

By the way: I am still locking for success stories about big Citrix environments which already moved to Notes Standard client.

Peter Meuser, 2010-10-07

.... natürlich bringt MS geld mit (ansonsten liesen sich keine Kostenersparniss erreichen). Es wird ja noch der 8er client ausgerollt (und hierfür geld bezahlt). Wie man allerdings zu einer abstrusen Zeitersparniss von 7 minuten kommt ist mir schleierhaft. Die company führt nächstes Jahr 5 'neue' (MS) Produkte ein (Win7, Office 2010, Sharepoint, Outlook/Exchange, Explorer8 UND Notes8). Es mag sein das die Integration unter MS besser ist (aber es wird für die Anwender sicherlich nicht einfach sein mit 2 clients zu arbeiten und wen ich da alleine schon an die ganzen links denke (oder buttons die verschickt werden)). Natürlich gibt es hier für alles Lösungen (aber nicht umsonst und wer von Anwendungsmigration nach Sharepoint träumt, kann ruhig weiterträumen). Allso, bleibt als entscheidungsgrundlage nur eine gute NWA für MS oder persönlich Anemositäten des Dr. G ....
Und noch zum Thema äußern.
1. Die Äußerung im Blog von 'IBM Deutschland' war nur peinlich.
2. Wenn man unfähig ist ein solchen Kunden zu behalten, schweigt man besser (das endet eher wie punkt 1.)

Gruß

Claudia Brick, 2010-10-07

@Daniel: Thanks very much for your suggestions! Some of the concepts you describe we have already deployed under Notes 7 base (and now under 8.5.1 base): the NTF's are located in a central directory on the Citrix Server and we currently deploy 10 different languages on Citrix. We know that we can install the Standard client and start the Base and we are aware of the possibility to assign the Standard Client to some users and not to others on Citrix. But in our company the policy is that all users get the same client experience. We even have to deploy now the 8.5.1 Base client on the local installations (we install the Standard but start the Base with a special icon). We are aware that experienced users will probably find a way around that but this is what we have been told to do.
Our plan is now to upgrade all the 10,000 users with the base and after that defining a concept together with the Citrix team how to migrate to the standard (and 64 bit).

Gaby Spaszewski, 2010-10-07

I often think about why companies move the Notes client to a Citrix environment. If you decide to use Citrix then isn't it the best way to move as much as possible into the browser and, if unavoidable, just use the basic client for old applications!?
Old applications don't look much different in the Eclipse client anyway (which was a mistake imho) and XPage applications really don't benefit much from the Eclipse environment (I am aware that some disagree here).

Henning Heinz, 2010-10-07

Henning, if your business is solely depending on browser apps, you don't need Citrix at all :-)

Peter Meuser, 2010-10-07

Well Peter it is not that simple. XPages basically are browser apps that use XULRunner in the Eclipse client. If you watch for example Vulcan demos then you will see that there is a switch between the browser and the Eclipse client with not difference in layout and features. IBM sells this as a great user experience and maybe it is. The Eclipse client can handle old Notes applications but those are basically looking and working like they did with the basic client (of course you can pimp them with Eclipse Plugins and Composite Applications). Solely speaking about IBM Lotus Notes. If XPages are the future (and I haven't read a statement that it isn't) then why would you need the Eclipse client on Citrix? Replication, which is one of the core strength of Lotus Notes, is not important in this environment.
If you follow the IBM mantra then, for example, the mail template will be rewritten in XPage technology providing you with the same experience in the Eclipse client and the browser. Just to be clear. I like the idea that the browser becomes more powerful. I just want to understand better what companies want to achieve in a Citrix setup with the Eclipse client.

Henning Heinz, 2010-10-07

@ Peter, now I know again why I always hesitate to reply in public discussions. whatever you say someone wants to misunderstand it.
my posting was a pure technical posting. I agree that all uses should have the same client experience. Gaby can deploy the standard client on the Citrix farm and step by step introduce the new functionality in areas where it is mostly needed.

I have many customers who are successfully deploying Notes on Citrix successfully. Not everyone starts with full clients for all users. But we have those kind of environments with larger Citrix installations using the Standard client.


@ Gaby, there is a tiny but very important difference when you deploy the latest versions. you get a true fully supported multi user/multi language environment. We have asked for it for a while and finally got a nice way which also works with network-shares in a supported way.

If you deploy the standard client there are a couple of best practices that you need to implement. The most important part is to move the Java classes cache-file to a central shared location.

You can use the /PAE switch to address more RAM but only to a certain extend because at some point you run out of kernel memory.

You are right that the better way is to move to 64bit and this is the only right direction. We have limitations on the Domino server side especially with Win 32bit OS for a long time. And it gives better scalability and performance to move to a 64bit OS platform for all kind of applications (even the application is still 32bit and it is also true for other platforms).

-- Daniel

Daniel Nashed, 2010-10-08

Daniel, my point is that not everything what is technically possible in some kind will convince the CEO, who has to come to a decision an may prefer a migration. Notes fan boys are always complaining, that in the Notes/Outlook discussion apples will be compared to oranges, because the latest Outlook version is always better than the old Notes version running on the company’s desktop or even the latest Notes Basic version available. You have to compare it – of course - with the bells and whistles of the Standard client. In the main land of the yellow side of world – the enterprises - it can’t be ignored, that every non-browser-based app has to be a well-behaved citizen of Citrix XenApp. In this situation the old dusty “classic” client should be just good enough, just because the Standard client does not fit inside the operating conditions? Did IBM’s design team just ignore which environments their product has to support? Official Citrix support started first with 8.5.1 and is still lost without 64 bit support of the os, which just starts to emerge as base of Citrix farms today.

The time is now to get the beast running in the enterprise. I am really tired of hearing IBM talking about the new possibilities of Notes 8 since years now and the seeing the reality in the enterprise IT. Gaby is not alone with her frustration: She wants to get all the bells and whistles for her users now, but get no perspective when that may happen.

Maybe a CEO like the one of Daimler comes through the door and says: Ok, then let’s switch to (an) Outlook tomorrow.


Peter Meuser, 2010-10-08

Peter, Daniel is an engineer. He works with what he has, and makes the best of it.

Volker Weber, 2010-10-08

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